And I wonder whether the former narrative serves the interests of the latter. Show Plants of the Gods: Hallucinogens, Healing, Culture and Conservation podcast, Ep Plants of the Gods: S4E2. And if it's one thing Catholicism does very, very well, it's contemplative mysticism. Brian's thesis, that of the Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, was explored by Alexander Hislop in his "The Two Babylons", 1853, as a Protestant treatise in the spirit of Martin Luther as Alexander too interjects the Elusinian Mysteries. I know that's another loaded phrase. There's John Marco Allegro claiming that there was no Jesus, and this was just one big amanita muscaria cult. So Brian, welcome. There's a moment in the book where you are excited about some hard evidence. The pagan continuity hypothesis at the heart of this book made sense to me. And what we find at this farmhouse is a sanctuary that Enriqueta Pons herself, the archaeologist who's been on site since 1990, she calls it some kind of sanctuary dedicated to the goddesses of the mysteries. And Brian, it would be helpful for me to know whether you are more interested in questions that take up the ancient world or more that deal with this last issue, the sort of contemporary and the future. That to live on forever and ever, to live an everlasting life is not immortality. They were relevant to me in going down this rabbit hole. 101. The Continuity Hypothesis was put forward by John Bowlby (1953) as a critical effect of attachments in his development of Attachment Theory. So how to put this? All rights reserved. So. Mark and Brian cover the Eleusinian Mysteries, the pagan continuity hypothesis, early Christianity, lessons from famed religious scholar Karen Armstrong, overlooked aspects of influential philosopher William James's career, ancient wine and ancient beer, experiencing the divine within us, the importance of "tikkun olam"repairing and . Was there any similarity from that potion to what was drunk at Eleusis? A combination of psychoactive plants, including opium, cannabis, and nightshade, along with the remains of reptiles and amphibians all steeped in wine, like a real witch's brew, uncovered in this house outside of Pompeii. It was the Jesuits who taught me Latin and Greek. They were mixed or fortified. That's only after Constantine. If your history is even remotely correct, that would have ushered in a very different church, if Valentinus's own student Marcus and the Marcosians were involved in psychedelic rituals, then that was an early road not taken, let's say. First act is your evidence for psychedelics among the so-called pagan religions in the ancient Mediterranean and Near East. Eusebius, third into the fourth century, is also talking about them-- it's a great Greek word, [SPEAKING GREEK]. And I think what the pharmaceutical industry can do is help to distribute this medicine. But I think there's a decent scientific foothold to begin that work. Brought to you by Wealthfront high-yield savings account, Peloton Row premium rower for an efficient workout, and You Need A Budget cult-favorite money management app.. Rick Rubin is a nine-time GRAMMY-winning producer, one of Time magazine's 100 most influential people in the world, and the most successful producer in any genre, according to Rolling Stone. For those who didn't have the time or the money or the temerity to travel all the way to Eleusis from Spain, here's your off-site campus, right? That would require an entirely different kind of evidence. Including, all the way back to Gobekli Tepe, which is why I mentioned that when we first started chatting. And in his book [? Now, what's curious about this is we usually have-- Egypt plays a rather outsized role in our sense of early Christianity because-- and other adjacent or contemporary religious and philosophical movements, because everything in Egypt is preserved better than anywhere else in the Mediterranean. And I think that's an important distinction to make. But it just happens to show up at the right place at the right time, when the earliest Christians could have availed themselves of this kind of sacrament. And let's start with our earliest evidence from the Stone Age and the Bronze Age. The pagan continuity hypothesis theorizes that when Christianity arrived in Greece around AD 49, it didn't suddenly replace the existing religion. Reviewed in the United States on January 29, 2023 And I've listened to the volunteers who've gone through these experiences. I mean, if Burkert was happy to speculate about psychedelics, I'm not sure why Ruck got the reception that he did in 1978 with their book The Road to Eleusis. So, like, they're wonderstruck, or awestruck by their libations and their incense. But so as not to babble on, I'll just say that it's possible that the world's first temple, which is what Gobekli Tepe is referred to as sometimes, it's possible the world's first temple was also the world's first bar. So I point to that evidence as illustrative of the possibility that the Christians could, in fact, have gotten their hands on an actual wine. CHARLES STANG: OK. So we move now into ancient history, but solidly into the historical record, however uneven that historical record is. All that will be announced through our mailing list. And so how far should this investigation go? And that's what I get into in detail in the book. Now that the pagan continuity hypothesis is defended, the next task is to show that the pagan and proto-Christian ritual sacraments were, in fact, psychedelicbrews. let's take up your invitation and move from Dionysus to early Christianity. Now-- and I think that we can probably concede that. Little attempt has been made, however, to bridge the gap between \"pagan\" and \"Christian\" or to examine late antique, Christian attitudes toward sexuality and marriage from the viewpoint of the \"average\" Christian. So first of all, please tell us how it is you came to pursue this research to write this book, and highlight briefly what you think are its principal conclusions and their significance for our present and future. I mean, I think the book makes it clear. Is this only Marcus? Now I want to get to the questions, but one last question before we move to the discussion portion. Now, that is part of your kind of interest in democratizing mysticism, but it also, curiously, cuts out the very people who have been preserving this tradition for centuries, namely, on your own account, this sort of invisible or barely visible lineage of women. The idea of the truth shall set you free, right, [SPEAKING GREEK], in 8:32. Because again, when I read the clinical literature, I'm reading things that look like mystical experiences, or that at least at least sound like them. And in the ancient world, wine was routinely referred to as a [SPEAKING GREEK], which is the Greek word for drug. What was the real religion of the ancient Greeks? CHARLES STANG: Thank you, Brian. So can you reflect for us where you really are and how you chose to write this book? To this day I remain a psychedelic virgin quite proudly, and I spent the past 12 years, ever since that moment in 2007, researching what Houston Smith, perhaps one of the most influential religious historians of the 20th century, would call the best kept secret in history. There have been breakthroughs, too, which no doubt kept Brian going despite some skepticism from the academy, to say the least. And as a lawyer, I know what is probative and what's circumstantial evidence, and I just-- I don't see it there. Now, it's just an early indication and there's more testing to be done. I also sense another narrative in your book, and one you've flagged for us, maybe about 10 minutes ago, when you said that the book is a proof of concept. And the one thing that unites both of those worlds in this research called the pagan continuity hypothesis, the one thing we can bet on is the sacred language of Greek. According to Muraresku, this work, which "presents the pagan continuity hypothesis with a psychedelic twist," addresses two fundamental questions: "Before the rise of Christianity, did the Ancient Greeks consume a secret psychedelic sacrament during their most famous and well-attended religious rituals? Tim Ferriss Show #646: Brian C. Muraresku with Dr. Mark Plotkin: The Eleusinian Mysteries, Discovering the Divine, The Immortality Key, The Pagan Continuity Hypothesis, Psychedelics, and More. And how can you reasonably expect the church to recognize a psychedelic Eucharist? They found a tiny chalice this big, dated to the second century BC. I took this to Greg [? BRIAN MURARESKU: OK. If the Dionysian one is psychedelic, does it really make its way into some kind of psychedelic Christianity? And what it has to do with Eleusis or the Greek presence in general, I mean, again, just to say it briefly, is that this was a farmhouse of sorts that was inland, this sanctuary site. And he found some beer and wine-- that was a bit surprising. That's the promise in John's gospel, in John 6:54-55, that I quote in the book. I wonder if you're familiar with Wouter Hanegraaff at the University of Amsterdam. Because very briefly, I think Brian and others have made a very strong case that these things-- this was a biotechnology that was available in the ancient world. Books about pagan continuity hypothesis? I'm not. CHARLES STANG: We've really read Jesus through the lens of his Greek inheritors. CHARLES STANG: Well, Mr, Muraresku, you are hedging your bets here in a way that you do not necessarily hedge your bets in the book. Find ratings and reviews for the newest movie and TV shows. 474, ?] Now you're a good sport, Brian. We have other textual evidence. So I really follow the scholarship of Enriqueta Pons, who is the archaeologist on site there, at this Greek sanctuary that we're talking about in Catalonia, Mas Castellar des Pontos. What Brian labels the religion with no name. There's a good number of questions that are very curious why you are insisting on remaining a psychedelic virgin. CHARLES STANG: All right. So you lean on the good work of Harvard's own Arthur Darby Nock, and more recently, the work of Dennis McDonald at Claremont School of Theology, to suggest that the author of the Gospel of John deliberately paints Jesus and his Eucharist in the colors of Dionysus. And all along, I invite you all to pose questions to Brian in the Q&A function. It tested positive for the microscopic remains of beer and also ergot, exactly the hypothesis that had been put forward in 1978 by the disgraced professor across town from you, Carl Ruck, who's now 85 years old, by the way. I think the wine certainly does. So how exactly is this evidence of something relevant to Christianity in Rome or southern Italy more widely? It's some kind of wine-based concoction, some kind of something that is throwing these people into ecstasy. Just imagine, I have to live with me. There were formula. He decides to get people even more drunk. And when I read psychedelic literature or I read the literature on near-death experiences, I see experiences similar to what I experienced as a young boy. But what I see are potential and possibilities and things worthy of discussions like this. But they charge Marcus specifically, not with a psychedelic Eucharist, but the use of a love potion. And so in some of these psychedelic trials, under the right conditions, I do see genuine religious experiences. It's funny to see that some of the first basilicas outside Rome are popping up here, and in and around Pompeii. I did go straight to [INAUDIBLE] Papangelli in Eleusis, and I went to the museum. So it wasn't just a random place to find one of these spiked wines. There's also this hard evidence that comes out of an archaeological site outside of Pompeii, if I have it correct. And she talks about kind of being born again, another promise from John's gospel. And then at some point they go inland. I am excited . It's something that goes from Homer all the way until the fall of the Roman Empire, over the course of well more than 1,000 years. So in the mountains and forests from Greece to Rome, including the Holy Land and Galilee. It still leaves an even bigger if, Dr. Stang, is which one is psychedelic? BRIAN MURARESKU: It just happens to show up. And considering the common background of modern religions (the Pagan Continuity hypothesis), any religious group who thinks they are chosen or correct are promoting a simplistic and ignorant view of our past.